Emmaline-EP5

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey everyone, welcome to the Sound of Podcast. I'm your host, Steven. On the show, we have Emiline. She is an artist, a songwriter, a creative. We talk about that process and also how music really helped her to find some closure in her life. All this and more on Sound of Podcast. Emma Line. How do can I ask about that name?

SPEAKER_03 0:25

That name?

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Yeah. I I think you explained it once at an open message.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

I mean, I think it was really like. I mean, that's what my parents named me, but it was because my mom was like, as she was giving birth, I think they were between that and like another name. And uh there's a song by Ben Folds 5 called Emiline, and it was one of my parents' like favorite songs. So that's what I'm named after. It's called Emiline, it's spelled the same way as the song. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

And you've heard the song, obviously.

SPEAKER_03 0:55

I've heard the song, yeah. I honestly like as a kid, I like hated it. But you know, I started to relate to it a lot, you know, and there's always like there's so many lines where I like listen to it now. I'm like, wow, I grew into that. That's cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

It's I'd imagine that's tricky. I'm not a parent, but I'd imagine it's a slippery slope of like we're gonna name our kid after this song.

SPEAKER_04 1:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

In maybe the hopes that they will, well, I don't know. I don't I I don't want to guess from a parent standpoint, but it's like you're setting yourself up in that way.

SPEAKER_03 1:27

I mean, like, I think of that with so many people who name their kids like, oh, what is it, like Caroline or things like that, where there's so many songs and you're like, Did you listen to it? Or like Roxanne, that's a big one. It's like, did you listen to the song or did you like the name? You know what that's about. Yeah, you know what exactly. That's the one where I'm like, oh, but you know, the song Emiline is um as I listened to it and like kind of like became sentient, like I figured out what it was about, and it's about this girl who like really caught this guy's like eye, and he like didn't recognize it while they were in a relationship, but she's the best thing that he's ever had, and she's walking away from him now. And I think I've done that so many times at this point, where I just leave people in awe, and then when I'm in their life, they don't really accept me for who I am, and then I walk away, and it's like it's it's definitely been something that I listen to now, and I'm like, wow, that's cool.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Yeah, and I mean who knows what what that's gonna look like in 10 years now because our relationships with songs change. I was talking about this, I think, with Kyle, um, and our relationships with songs change, and our relationships with music changed, and we are not yes, there's that nostalgia factor of uh pulling it out of my ether, but what Wonder Wall meant to me when I was in high school is different from what Wonder Wall means to me now. And music has that kind of transformative ability of yes, it'll take you back to that place if you were at senior prom or jamming with your friends in the car or whatever. But I I think your relationship with that with a song or a piece of music will change too because you're not that same person, but you grow with it in that way, which I think is a uh a sign of just good songwriting.

SPEAKER_04 3:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

Which is why I'm never gonna write a song that's gonna specifically name an age range or Oh my gosh, yeah. No, it's I'm not a fan.

SPEAKER_03 3:24

It's so and I think I have thrown a few like ages in my songwriting, but I think it's purely because it is so like transformative for me to see where I was at that time. Where it's very timestamp, yeah, you know, and I think that's a little different than like she's a 25-year-old girl or something like that. It's like, all right, well, you know.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

What's gonna happen when what's gonna happen when when T Swift is 60 or pushing Stevie Nixon's age and she's singing 23, right? Does she have multiple songs where she age drops?

SPEAKER_03 4:03

Is it it's 22? I know that because that's what I turned this year, and everyone and I was like, well, I don't want to put a Taylor Swift song on my like Instagram post about it.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Yeah. Well, what you need is just do a new song about your age every year. Every year for the rest of the year.

SPEAKER_03 4:18

Or you can insert it. It'll just be, you know.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Yeah, yeah, you can change it up. Yeah. When did your relationship with music begin? Let's go way back.

SPEAKER_03 4:27

Oh gosh. Well, oh. Um, my mom has a video of me when I was like five or six, and I'm playing like, you know, the kid pianos where they like don't actually have the real like piano sounds, but they're like a very small, like yes, yeah. And she had me like listening to Britney Spears or something, one of the songs that came out of like that toy. Oh, and I was listening to that and playing along like perfectly to it. And she was like, How is she doing that? You know, and I I kind of like progressed from there where I'm like, Well, I've I guess I've always liked music, but there was times where you know, I was never the kid who was getting the lead, ever. You know, I was so scared to perform on stage, that was such a big thing for me. Um, where I just had this crippling anxiety where I couldn't even walk out of the house, I couldn't even step into a restaurant for years um because of how scared I was of just the public. And I think that like because of that, I convinced myself I could never do music. And I like, you know, tying it back to what I just said about the never getting a lead or anything like that, I was like, well, I'm obviously not good enough to do music, so I'm not gonna be able to do it. So I dropped it for a really long time and I didn't touch it. Um and I think seeing videos like that from when I was a kid, I realized that it was always like something that was just within me. And I think in high school I started to do it a little bit more, and then I would drop it again, and then something would happen where I wouldn't get a lead, or I'd be, you know, someone would say something about my voice, and then I would drop it again. I remember someone saying I sung too loud, and then I like completely like stopped singing like that. And you know, I went through that whole like singing very quietly like phase. I think a lot of people do where it's just stylistic, and then I kind of just trained my vocal cords to do that, and then I would watch old videos of myself belting, and I'd be like, Oh my god, I ruined my voice. Um, so I think with that, like I've just gone through so many phases where I hated music because people just like commented on it so much, and then I would sit in my room and play music, and then I would like your music or other people just music. Just music in general, you know. And I I just like it was something where I was like, I don't want to do this. Like, I don't want to do music, even though it was something that was so stimulating for my brain, and I just like didn't want the pleasure out of it that I was getting because I knew that it wasn't going to go very far. And I think that was something that I like kind of just put myself in this little cage and suppressed a lot of it, and it was just, you know, I think that's kind of you know, the story of where I started music, but also where I stopped music and started music again and stopped it and then started it, and then I just kind of realized that I was an adult and I could do what I wanted to, and started going to open mics, and I think that's how it really started.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Well, now going back to what you were saying about going far with it, and you mean like having a a monetary value to it, or I don't even think adoration.

SPEAKER_03 7:41

I think it was like people are never gonna listen to my music, you know, or like listen to me sing, or you know, think that I was good. I think that was another big thing where I just had so much self-doubt that it wasn't ever something that I was good at, so I figured, you know, because I'm such a perfectionist that because it wasn't you were saying to yourself that it wasn't good enough, or you were kind of taking it. I guess so. And we can probably restart the way that I'm doing this because I think I'm talking in circles now. But because my relationship with music is very strange, and I think it's you know, I hear so many people um talk about how they're you know, they they liked music throughout their childhood and like, you know, their parents were musicians or they were musicians, and then it just kind of like, oh, I started violin and like whatever. But I think for me it was, you know, doing music as a kid and having those videos that I was able to understand that it's always been something that I grew up with, um, just in my mind because my parents aren't musicians. My mom didn't do anything musical, my dad didn't do anything musical. I listened to music as a kid, but that was about it. Um and I think it wasn't because um it wasn't because there was like a lack of that in my life that it didn't like stimulate me, but like I think there was so many other things that I wanted to be good at, including music where I never felt that I was good enough to like continue doing it. So I would take these breaks where you know I didn't get a lead in the play. So I was like, okay, well, I'm gonna stop doing that for a little bit because I'm obviously not good enough to do it, or but it was more you telling yourself. Oh, it it's always it's always been me telling me myself that, but the external validity and just like seeing that, you know, I didn't get that lead, then that's obviously obviously then I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough outside of any of this. And I think that's the other thing where I just created this bubble for myself where there was so much going on in my mind where I was trying to like I don't even know. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

A lot of noise. I mean, it but obviously you're not in that that time now because I've seen you play out. Yeah. And I saw you at Cult play and you played a Kier song, and I remember being like, yeah, yeah. Yep. Um and and playing a showcase as well as well. So like it doesn't seem like you've internalized it as much now, and that you are playing out and you're collabing with people. And so where explain that then.

SPEAKER_03 10:44

The collaboration with people or what?

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Like the Well, just that you've you've surpassed internalizing of like that you don't want to play out anymore, or you don't want to use music as a as a thing. Because you're doing it now.

SPEAKER_03 10:59

Oh, I am doing it, but I think there is something to be said about that. And I think that's I I do it now, and I like enjoy playing it, and I do it for myself because there's been so many times where people that I was collaborating with, you know, the same people who I was collaborating with last year, I'm not collaborating with them anymore. And it's like maybe it was, you know, something that wasn't really working out or wasn't meant to happen, but I get people who don't want to work with me because you know, I have a school schedule that I have to abide by, or I'm not as passionate as they want me to be about certain things or whatever, or they're not super passionate about my project. But I take that like external stuff and I like I take it so deeply that I will stop playing for, you know, like a few months, and I've just been trying to fight that um for a while now, I think. Um because there was a time where I would just cause it or have it like completely change what I was doing or reroute what I was doing or in a positive way, or just in a way? I think it's just in a way in general. I think there's some things that have positively impacted my career in a sense where I wouldn't have met certain people if I hadn't stopped working with other people. But I think there's other ways where I was like, alright, I'm gonna completely change the genre that I'm working in. And you know, I'm s such a small artist now, I want to change the genre as much as I can. Um just to see what I like because no one's expecting anything of me. Um, and I think even if I were to, you know, grow, I think no one's expecting anything of me. But at the same time, like I think there's so many things that I have gained and lost that have created how I do music now that it's just so much different.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Yeah, what was what was your process like originally, or when do you remember um that you started writing your own songs?

SPEAKER_03 13:11

Oh my gosh. I I mean I started writing music like really sitting down and writing music when I was in middle school. And I remember that because I had a choir teacher, um, Miss Swagger. Love her. She just moved back. Ums Swagger. Shout out, I think it's Miss Harry now. She's married, but at the time she was not. Um, I think she has two beautiful children. She told me I was the reason she would never have children, but here she is. Um, but she really was like such a maternal figure for me in middle school, which was something I really needed. I have such a close relationship with my mother, but my parents were going through it. Um, they're not together anymore, but and they weren't at the time, but it was so different at that time. But um, she would let me sit in her like little like sound booth for like um vocals or whatever. And I would sit with my friends and I would write songs or I would I would write songs. Um I would write songs that I could um perform for people who would come and sit in the sound room um during like our our uh lunch period or during our um like advisory period where we would just have time to ourselves that we're supposed to be working on homework. Um but I I would be so excited to show people that I could write music and that I could like do stuff like that, and people would be so amazed by it. Or and then you know, I would have people who'd be like, Well, I'm probably better at singing than you.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

And I'd be like, Shh, are they writing their own songs though?

SPEAKER_03 14:41

Yeah, exactly. And I was like, Well, actually, um, but yeah, I think that's probably when I really started writing music. And I have songs from middle school that I look at now and I'm like, I could I could rewrite those and they would probably still be really good. So, and it's it's very interesting to me how I've been able to kind of hold on to a piece of my childhood through music that I've written because I feel like a lot of artists will look at old songs and just cringe, and I and I definitely do that.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

There's always a part of that, but then you're also like, Where are some other seeds here that you're tapping into something?

SPEAKER_03 15:17

Yeah, exactly. And I I think it's nice that I've been able to maintain a little bit of that, and that's always been very comforting.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Did you start on a on an instrument first, or did you do like the the elementary school where they made you play an instrument?

SPEAKER_03 15:31

I my grandfather got me a Casio keyboard for Christmas one year, and I have never I'm not musically trained whatsoever. Um I don't know chords, I don't know any of that stuff, but I think exist. Yeah, exactly. You know, and I I don't know any of that stuff, but I put numbers in on like tape and I put numbers on all of the keys, and I would listen to music and I would write my own like chords essentially from the numbers. Yeah. Um, and like I still haven't been able to put two and two together, but that's definitely how I started doing that, just so I could remember it. Um and I think that's how I really started, and then I started playing guitar, I had two lessons, and then I got too anxious to go back, so I didn't, and I took those like four chords and I just ran with it and taught myself everything else.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

That's all you need. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think I had one guitar lesson, and it was I mean, I think it was me. I'll I'll say I was the problem in terms of my I you said you got anxious. I I got impatient.

SPEAKER_03 16:40

No, I yeah, I I definitely just got anxious about it. Like I was I was embarrassed to go. I was like, I'm never gonna be good at this, I'm not going back.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Oh sure. I mean, I think that's part of like the overall hurdle that happens sometimes. But like anything with building a a skill, a talent, um, whatever you want to call it, it's just kind of it's it's the practicing. And I know practicing even sounds like I I kind of cringe at that too when people say that. So I don't even look at it like that. I look at it as like, you know, pick up the guitar and just like noodle around for like an hour and see what you can come up with and just explore it in that way and be curious. Because yeah, I don't I don't like the term practice because it puts like an officiated kind of I don't know, institutionalized version of and that's not the way my brain works.

SPEAKER_03 17:29

No, me neither. And honestly, you say that now, and I'm like, I guess I've been practicing this whole time, you know? Yeah, and like I I'm not that way either. I'm like, I just need to sit in my room for a few like hours and play guitar. Like that's just something that I have to do in my brain, and it's not like practicing or anything like that. It's just it feels good to do that, like it feels productive in a sense, but it also just feels like I'm being creative in the way I want to or learning new things, and I still only really know like four or five chords, you know, like by name, and at the same time, like I'm trying to figure stuff out, and there's been such like a battle in my head recently where I'm like, I feel like all of my songs sound the same because they're like the same four chords, and then I'm like, wait, that's like most music, and you can like play things.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

Well, there's there's a recycled thing. Yeah, exactly. All of it. I think what is it? There's only 12 notes or something, American notes. I'm paraphrasing what Noel Gallagher said, but there's only so many at the end of the day. Yeah. And how are you going to rearrange them in a way that is going to um speak to people or or get some some toes tapping in that way? Do you think that or what are you how how are you learning from the process of kind of hammering it out for a few hours? Is it a kind of a formalized thing if you're like, okay, I'm gonna go mess around for two hours or not practice? We don't have to say that. Like, is that something that you're like, okay, I'm gonna take some time, or is it just an organic thing?

SPEAKER_03 19:08

I think it's very organic for me. I have like spent a lot of my summers recently dog sitting, and I realize that if I'm by myself in their house and I don't have a guitar with me, I don't know what I'm doing with myself, you know? And I think it's just become a very big habit for me to just immediately like gravitate towards playing guitar or playing keyboard or just any kind of instrument and learning like you know, I've found a lot of my and I'll say it with quotation marks, practicing is learning songs by other artists and figuring out their patterns and their style and the way that I like how other people have translated their emotions through that kind of stuff. And I've definitely spent a lot of time more so studying what they're doing, and I think that's another form of like practicing that I've done.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Yeah, it's so important, and I think I I always think of it as like, yeah, we all have our influences as songwriters and everything, but then if you want to delve deeper into it, and this is coming from me being uh from a family of like historians, but like when did this song come out? When did this album come out? And then also I I love you know, this song by whomever. Who were they influenced by? Who were they paying homage to, ripping off whatever you want to ever, whatever you want to call it? Who were they, you know, who were their influences, and tracing it back all the way to uh, you know, as as far back in the past as possible, and just kind of gleaning what you can from that. Because all of those influences are are everywhere and embedded in all of the artists that that we follow. Is that something that you you do as well? If you're like, hey, I like the song, who are they? Yeah, who are they?

SPEAKER_03 20:56

I mean, it definitely is. I think I I can't remember who I was talking to, but we had this whole like um, I think a lot of musicians are like, you have to listen to Radiohead and study a lot of their stuff. And I think that's like such a like cliche that comes through. But we were like, Well, if you're listening to all of Radiohead's discography, listen to the Beatles, like study that. That's they're literally, you know, just period pieces of themselves. Um, and I think that's something that like made me think about the way that other people do that and the way that a lot of my musical influences have looked at other people, and I I tend to look up to such powerful women that I like to see what powerful women influence them, you know? And I think that's definitely something I've caught myself doing.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Where has that led you in terms of going down different paths?

SPEAKER_03 21:52

Like the artist that it's led me to? Um, I think the biggest influence I have is Hailey Williams from Paramour. I think she's just something Or someone that I've always looked up to the minute that I started playing music.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

She is something though, too. I mean, you see her influence on what she's done for 20 plus years now.

SPEAKER_03 22:11

Yeah, exactly. And I mean, like, such a powerful pop punk female figure for such a male-dominated um like realm of music. And she, you know, is influenced by people like Alanis Morissette, Slater Kinney, like those like fantastic, like vengeful female artists who I just like am absolutely obsessed with. And I think that's something that I have just slowly gotten back into, especially Alanis Morissette and Tori Amos, and like people like that, where I'm just like before the you know, guitars and pedals and stuff like that, there was just like raw piano in the back of all of those songs, and I've been definitely finding myself gravitating towards that a lot more recently.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

You spoke on um music kind of from like a I don't know if it's psychological, but you you use the word stimulating with music, and I think other people you know frame it as like, yeah, it makes you feel good, and a bit, but are you talking about because earlier you're going to school for neuroscience, correct?

SPEAKER_03 23:23

Uh yeah, a little bit. I've looked at it.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

So um but have you are you looking at the effects that it has biologically of what what happens to the brain when one is doing the music stuff?

SPEAKER_03 23:35

I haven't looked at that specifically. A lot of my friends are music therapists, and like are they have a full career doing that, and I'm so impressed by them doing that. Um for me personally, I am neurodivergent. It's like just my brain does not function like a lot of other people's, and I think that's you know, starting to be a lot more represented, which I think is very nice, but at the same time, I think a lot of people don't understand that I hear things differently than you know, some other people may hear things, and um it's a self-regulation thing, you know. I've I've had spells of like extreme anger and extreme sadness, and I'm able to pull myself out of that by playing music in a way where it just activates a different part of my brain that just like no other coping mechanism ever could. And I think that's where it becomes stimulating to me, where it is a sensory thing that has helped me ground myself a lot more.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

It's so yeah, it's definitely doing things, and I wear one day we'll have like a doctor doctor on the show that can explain these things to me. And I know I've I've seen like the images of the different highlighted parts of your brain that that go on when you're engaging with music, when you're performing it, or even I I think I was reading somewhere that from a mindfulness perspective, there's it's like a a prompt of like listen to a song that gives you goosebumps.

SPEAKER_04 25:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

And there's definitely moments, even when I'll be like running on a treadmill and listening to music, that you know, the song will hit a crescendo, a peak, or whatever, and I feel something in my brain, yeah that's like and and whether it's a good emotion or bad emotion, it's it's something's definitely happening in there. And yeah, I I have yet to find anything that kind of going back to stimulates my brain in that way that it does. Because I know what you're talking about of like different sounds can provoke different things. And there was actually a really interesting mindfulness exercise that um this dialectical behavioral therapist was teaching me um a mindfulness practice, which is listen to a song, but only focus on one particular instrument from the song, whether it's the bass, the guitar, or the vocals. And it's it's good, it and it centers and grounds you in that way because you're just focusing on that that little bit of it. When you're writing now, how much of that has I mean, you you'd probably say you've evolved since the middle school days.

SPEAKER_03 26:21

Oh, I mean, absolutely, I think I've evolved, but I think there's been so much more um I mean lyricis, obviously, I'm a little more literate than I was in middle school, and I think I'm able to, you know, not fully immerse myself in what rhymes or what sounds good together, but more like emotionally provoking music in terms of I mean there's so many levels of that. Um, like lyricism is a big thing, but at the same time, like the progressions and how they change or how they like I think the reason I'm so hard to write with with a lot of people is because I have this like idea in my brain where I'm like this has to have a certain dissonance that just makes people uncomfortable. And they don't fully understand that, or they don't hear it, or I want to find music that shows them a similar thing, and I just have yet to find it. And I think that's like something nice where I'm not copying people as much, where I don't think copying is the word for it, but like you know, in middle school growing influence.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

In in in middle school, I wanted to be so much like people that I would like write songs that were very, very, very similar, and obviously they're not going anywhere, so I'm not too concerned about that.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

But well, I think that's the thing, is because you're you're still finding your voice.

SPEAKER_03 27:56

Yeah, exactly. And I think that since middle school, I have progressed so much in terms of wanting to be such like a original person, and I think everyone wants to do that, but I think I've definitely caught myself overthinking it a little bit too much to the point where it gets a little repetitive.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

But I think there's definitely been more depth to my music in terms of a lot of things, so well, one of the songs I I forget the title, it's it's the song where we were talking about going on a on a date with somebody. Do you know which song?

SPEAKER_03 28:32

Oh, performative.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Performative, yeah. And you have a lyric in there that is very you were talking about literate, but that song to me is very literal because you're talking about this individual person who was wearing glasses that were not prescription, correct? Yes, and that's the bit and that's your chorus, yes, though, right? Yeah, but to me that is like a larger um umbrella of like what are we doing? Yeah, what is this?

SPEAKER_03 29:00

Yeah, I've definitely found a lot of influence through um I can't name a specific artist, but the just general idea of picking such a mundane situation or topic that represents such a broader problem. And I think that one, performative specifically, is um there was there's been so many times in my life where people will choose to portray themselves in a certain way, um, so that they are catering to me, um, or they appeal to me. And eventually you can't keep that up forever if that's not the person you are, you know? And I think that's where that became a really big thing for me, where performative the song is just so much about the way that I think a lot of people who I've tried to be in a relationship with or go on a date with will want to fit a category that they know I'll be in love with, and then just slowly begin to fade out of it, and that's when things get really catastrophic because I put a lot of trust in people, and I think that's when things get a little weird for me. Um, and you know, the end of the song I say, but you'll I don't think I'll ever know what that means, or I don't think, you know, I don't think I'll know what it means, and then eventually I say, but I'll never get what you mean. Um, and I think it's very much so where I I have kind of accepted that people probably will never understand what's going on in my brain half the time because that's just being human. But I think I've wanted people to understand for so long that it just became like such like a spiral for me, and I think that's really what I've tried to provoke through music.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

So well, yeah, and I think that's kind of the the larger avenue, and and that's what I've noticed about with talking with other artists and songwriters is that sometimes we're not the best at communicating uh like verbally from a one-to-one, which is why we need to dress things up and the way that we do to communicate it, because they're hard emotions, they're hard emotions to to deal with and they're hard emotions to regulate, and sometimes the avenues um I feel like that maybe less artistically inclined people choose to do to express themselves in frustration, sadness, and anger might not be the healthiest. And I'm not saying that artists don't have those, you know, the the stigmas for a reason of being tortured artists, but I feel like there's it's a it's a bazillion years old of this idea that we have to communicate these thoughts and these feelings in this way because the regular way it isn't gonna cut it. Uh I want to go back to the performative and and how long that I guess how long that song was um in you, as it were, before you were like, you know, from the experience, maybe you don't have to have a specific timeline, but like based off of that experience where you're like, what was that and what how how where and how do I put this this experience and interaction to words and music?

SPEAKER_03 32:27

And honestly, like the person who I wrote this song about is probably gonna listen to this, which is totally fine. I'm very good friends with him. But it was um, I think the fact that he literally said, I was like, Why are you wearing those glasses? And he was like, They're they're performative. That's literally what he said to me. And I think that when he said that to me, I was like, Oh my god, I can't stand people like this. Like, I truly cannot stand people like this. Um and I I think it was sitting in me for so much longer than that. I think I had gotten out of, I've gotten out of like um, it wasn't a like bad relationship, and the breakup wasn't bad, but for me the breakup was the most catastrophic thing I'd ever been through in my entire life. Um, and I went through that in October of 2024, um, starting October, and we didn't stop talking until January first. Um, and it was like a complete like meltdown for me, like totally, like I lost so many people in my life because I don't think anyone understood how attached I was to a person and how much of myself I'd put into a person. And it was all because, you know, he had told me one thing about like what he enjoyed about me or what he liked about my personality, or you know, what I liked about him, and for so long that was just us constructing this like made-up thing that didn't exist, and that was our relationship. Um, and it was nothing against, you know, him or you know what happened. It wasn't, you know, manipulative, it wasn't any of that, but it was just this like false portrayal of the people we really were, where we were trying to keep up with this like catering to the other person and like that back and forth. Um, and I think that was where the song performative really like stemmed from because it's not about the person who said that to me, it's about the people who have done that to me, and those are two different people. Um and I think that's just so it's so trippy when you think about it in a way where um people will say so many things, or I feel like you know you'll go on a date with someone and be absolutely like head over heels, and you'll be like, I love that thing about you, I love it. But but then they keep doing it, and you're like, I don't know how much I like that, or I don't know if that was because I really liked you at the time, and now I can like say that to you, or something like that, but I think just putting on those performative acts, especially um because you love someone is just so scary to me.

SPEAKER_01 35:36

Yeah, I mean you're talking about like nature things too, of I mean what well it's like why birds sing to each other, yeah. And why I think it's different types of birds fluff themselves up in that way. I mean, these are genetically designed things of attracting whomever, you know, for the purposes of companionship.

SPEAKER_04 36:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

No, it's that's actually super interesting, and just the statement in itself to me of they're performative. Yeah. Um I mean, we're speaking not only of of that literal thing, but just in a way, the way that we um interpret one another, it it is all kind of performative in some ways. Yeah. So it definitely seems like you've yeah, you've hit something on there. How long did that take?

SPEAKER_03 36:27

Do you with that initial honestly? And that's why I was like, oh gosh, he's gonna ask me how long writing that song took. Um I wrote it the morning before I played it at that at that first opening. And I came on and I was like, I actually wrote this song this morning because someone said some really stupid things to me. Um, but it I was super jealous.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Because then Evan played Evan played a song like that he had written like the day before or something.

SPEAKER_03 36:50

About his landlord. Yeah. Yeah. And I was just like, all right, it's just all, you know, it's all coming out tonight.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

But it's all impromptu.

SPEAKER_03 36:57

Yeah, but it was like, and I mean, like, I definitely eventually like took it and kind of put it in more like less frantic terms and kind of honed in on a lot of those metaphors that I decided to just run with. But um I I went back and forth with keeping the the chorus the way that it was because it seemed so repetitive to just go. I think it's funny too. I know.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

I mean, people laugh at it, which I mean it is like in the context, but then it's also like she's not wrong. Like of you're telling the story, yeah, and it's like what? Um I mean, there's a there's a never clear lyric that I always go back to. I think it's it's like she says the angels are her friends, and then the song just has a little break in it, and then he's like, What the hell does that mean? Yeah. Um and no, I I think it's it was a conscientious thing, and and I think I appreciate that you kept it in that way because sometimes you can just tell it like it is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:01

I think there was also a level of like, I went through this time where I was like, should I like name different performative things that guys do? Like, like we went through the writing, like when I was writing it, um, I was like, Do I like your your nail polish was performative?

SPEAKER_00 38:14

Um, you're like you could do a whole EP or album based on these things.

SPEAKER_03 38:19

I know, but that was like it was like I just I think I decided to keep it just continuously saying those glasses, specifically because regardless of how much I thought about it, I just kept like it's exactly how the song is sung, you know. Like I say all these things and I'm like, God, like you're doing all this stuff to me, but but those glasses were performative? Like, are you kidding me? Like, please, like something else. But that was just what my mind went back to every single time. So I was like, you know, I'll keep it that way.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

Where where else does inspiration strike you? I mean, it it seems like in this pier that you're kind of pulling on some of the the darker themes. Um, because I don't think I've heard stuff from your catalog that is is in particular. I don't want to say uplifting, but it seems like you're gravitating more towards the um, I don't know, the the solem aspects of the side of the side.

SPEAKER_03 39:15

I I think I definitely am. Um, I mean there's some songs that I haven't even played at some like open mics and things like that, where you know, I have this song called Tag Along that's just talking about like, you know, like whatever you do, like I'm coming with you. But at the end of but at the end of the song, and I go, but I've jumped every curb just so you could tag along. So then I, you know, it's like, oh god, we almost got there. But I think I do um I do pull from a lot of darker topics, and I think it's purely not because I have this dark and twisted mind. I mean, actually, yeah, no, it definitely helps. It definitely does, but I think it's it's more it comes from that stimulating aspect where I just like always hear lyrics that are so dark, or I hear, you know, dissonance in a song and it like just like gives me the chills that I am looking for. And I think I tend to stick to those topics, not because it's hard to write songs that are happier, but I just feel like for me specifically, I find no originality in it when I try to do it. And I think there's so many It's not part of your voice, or it's not part of your musical vocabulary, right? Actually, a quote that my friend sent me, and I think it was genuinely like I can't quote the author because I think it was from Twitter. So I don't know if it was like Oh yeah, the Twitter author. Yeah, the yeah, the Twitter author, you know. Um, but he sent it to me and it was like Um There's not a lot of words for happiness because it kind of is just there immediately, but when you have something that you're sitting there longing for it, it's so much easier to think of words for it. And I think that's a lot of where my darker themes come from because there's such a broad range of ways to explain the way I feel when I'm just sitting there staring at a wall and feeling bad about myself. So it's just easier to write music for that. As when I'm happy, I want to be in that moment, and I can't really think of how to describe that moment, you know.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Yeah, I I think what comes up for me is like when I'm I'm happy, uh, in or at least from a song point of view, is it's like I don't need to write a song about this, I just want to hang on to this feeling. Exactly. I mean, I guess maybe the more mindful thing to do, and that's not true, I've written happy-ish stuff. Um, but um because sometimes it's a it's almost like a mantra thing. Like I know that Tom Petty has talked about he would write songs that were for him, or as as people say, you write songs for you almost as like a reminder of like, hey, don't forget about this stuff. And please remind yourself of this stuff when it gets a little gnarly out there. And I understand that aspect, but I I think from like the yeah, writing a a happy song, yeah, for me it's similar of like I would rather just experience it in that way, and maybe it would be smarter for me to be like, wait a minute, I can encapsulate this moment in a song and then share it with other people, and then maybe they'll buy it. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 42:30

Yeah, exactly. But it's like I thought about writing like happier music or trying to write happier music, and even when I do, I feel like there's like not to bring it back to this, but I feel like it's performative, you know?

SPEAKER_01 42:47

Like I feel like you feel like you're being insincere.

SPEAKER_03 42:49

Yeah, I feel like I'm being insincere when I do stuff like that. By like not by being happy, but more so by like promoting things that aren't like niche like yearning emotions that everyone can feel, you know, because I think it's so much easier to relate to a happy song than like a sad song that has specific connotations to it. Yeah. And I I like having that like niche audience because I have people now and it's so weird. Not in like a bad way, but it's weird in a sense where people are like, I that lyric stuck with me. And it's like, wow. Okay, I'm glad I was able to provoke that from someone because like it took me so long to figure out how to.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

That's the best though. It really is to get those those bits and pieces, and I still definitely have those moments where I'll be watching somebody play for the first time and they have a lyric that stucks out, and I think I've spoken on it before. But first of all, I'm like, fuck, I wished I wrote that. And then the other is like, yeah, yeah, damn, that was good. Like that was that um that that definitely sucks. The ripple aspect. So you haven't recorded any of your stuff yet. Is that something that you would like to do, or are you cool with just playing out with it for now?

SPEAKER_03 44:11

I have wanted to record my stuff for a while. I have one song recorded that I did in a studio, and it was honestly for like an audio engineer, like a bunch of kids came out. So it's free. Yeah. Yeah. It was free. But it was in a professional studio. It was in a professional studio that I think Fiona Apple played in. It was at um oh Omega Studios in Bethesda.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

Yeah, I think I've heard of it.

SPEAKER_03 44:39

Yeah, it's it's pretty famous. There was a bunch of people hanging up in there. I was like, whoa, this is sick.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

Um with records? Yeah. Yes. There are so many kind of people.

SPEAKER_03 44:51

Like uh uh Bad Brains was in there, a few other people. Yeah, I was like, I was like, oh my god, that's dope. And it sounded really good, but oh my god, I was so nervous. I was so quiet, and you could hear like my guitar like rattling in the recording. I'm like, damn it. Um, so I probably will never put that anywhere, but it was definitely a really cool experience. And I was like, whoa, like I can just send this to people and be like, Yep, this is recorded, this is my song. Um, so I think I've kind of wanted to start doing that now, especially because so many people come up to me now and are like, where can I listen to your music? Yeah, and people owe it to them. And I'm like, I'm like, shoot. Oh my god, like I start like there's people following me on Instagram, and like honestly, this week, this is such a good time for me to do this podcast because it has truly like set in that like I'm a part of this like scene now, and like people expect me to like put music out and like are wanting me to do things and like well I don't I don't want to say they expect you, but I think it's like you well, you might I'll say you owe it to yourself and and then to them if they are asking. And it's not yeah, I mean no one expects anything of anyone, especially in this scene, but I mean like to an extent, you know what I mean, like in terms of creation, but I think that there's so much now where I want to have like you know, a recording where I'm like this is exactly how it's supposed to be played, because I play songs different like every single time I play them.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

Why?

SPEAKER_03 46:29

Um just experimental. I mean, like nothing's getting recorded, nothing's set in stone yet, so it's like fun, but like I do want to hold myself to that where there are things that are on a recording and I can still do them differently, but then you know, I have like a pretty consistent like sound with that one that I can match or I can play differently live, and then people be like, Oh my gosh, she plays it so much different live, and it sounds so cool. Like, I would love to have that, but I I definitely want to record something purely because I am not just like a musician, but I'm also like an artist, and I want to have that whole concept like put together as almost like a portfolio. Like, I've had this whole concept that I really want to do, um, and I I want to eventually have it recorded and like cohesive and be cool.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

Like a concept album?

SPEAKER_03 47:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:26

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:28

Which, like, I don't know if I want to like say anything crazy, but um there it stems from that relationship that I had that was definitely very formative for me, and it there was a lot of things left at his house, and I wrote a song about each one of them. Um, and I want to call it Bed Frame and then have it really cool. That's definitely like that's like the whole like running for that because I want to have my EP out, and then I want to have that album, and like I don't know, like that's the dream, kind of. And like I told myself a while ago, like my goal in life is to just have an album record it, like on a platform, like that's all. People don't have to listen to it, but like I want that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:15

And I mean that's it's easier than ever to do that now. Exactly. And if you already have people that are asking you, yeah, you already have to.

SPEAKER_03 48:23

That's the other thing, and I'm like, people are asking me for this stuff, and they want to like book shows with me, but like I can't not I can't show them like just videos of me playing because I mean like I can, but that would prove you're not a robot, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:38

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 48:39

Like, yeah, my a my AI check. But um, yeah, I mean there's so many reasons that I want to record now, it's just such a tedious process, and I'm so detail oriented that it's like, God, if something isn't like so specific, then I'm gonna lose it. But I do have a lot of really talented people who have been reaching out to me and like want to record with me, and I'm like, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 49:04

All the pieces have fallen into place.

SPEAKER_03 49:07

And I'm like, oh my god, now I know, I really do.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

Or not now, but when when you're ready. Wow. It sounds like you have the network is shelling out for you.

SPEAKER_03 49:17

I don't want to name drop anyone, but there are some people who like we will be recording this summer, so that's really exciting. That's so scary.

SPEAKER_01 49:32

I I don't know when you started playing out again, but like it might have been in and around October or November when I saw you at Cult Classic.

SPEAKER_03 49:40

That's probably shout out to Cult Classic. Yeah, shout out Cult Classic. That's actually where my career started. Yeah. Um so real. Um, yeah, I mean, I probably started in the music scene. I was dating someone at the time who was in the music scene and was at cult pretty frequently. Um, and I was like, all right, I'll come to an open mic. So I went to the open mic with them, and then I saw them, or I saw, oh my gosh, no, the I saw Dream Punch at uh Big Bats in like two years ago now, um playing in like June, and they were playing with a bunch of people, and I was like, oh my god, you can just like you can do that, like I want to do that. And so I like started talking to a bunch of people, and the person I was talking to at the time who's at cult all the time, like was like, you can just go around and talk to people, like go to an open mic, see, and like I just started doing that, and then all of a sudden, like I played one like one open mic, and Joe Martin reached out and was like, Do you want to play with us at 49 West? And I was like, Oh my gosh, dream punch shows where dreams are like this is dreams come true. The dreams come true, like they're about to punch my dreams. Like, but then that happened. Um, and then I met like a band that I was playing um with for a little bit, um, just because I was so nervous to play by myself. So I like didn't want to. Um, so I like found a band and we did a bunch of covers, and then we did one song that I played uh that I wrote. Um and I hated all my other music. I wrote it like two days before I met them with the band, and I was like, let's do that.

SPEAKER_00 51:25

And that's wait, so none of the back catalogue that you already had, you're like none of the catalog dialogue.

SPEAKER_03 51:29

I gotta write a new one. Um and that and that space song. Um, and that like kind of is where everything like took off. And I had like a very like people were texting me afterwards and being like, that was so mozzy star, keep it up. And I was like, I don't know who that is. But then I started listening, and now it's like a super big inspiration for me, so that's super cool because I was like, Oh, this is exactly what I like, this is dope. Um, and I think even my stepdad said it to me, and I was like, I don't know who that is. So I started doing that, and that was 2020 December 2023 is when I played my first show ever in the scene. Um, and then 2024, I played a bunch at like Paris Underground and stuff like that, but I was just bouncing around with different musicians, playing shows by myself, doing all kinds of stuff. And then the end of 2024 is when I really was like, all right, I want to do this, like for real, for real. And then I just started writing, and then yeah. But I think it was because of that breakup that I went through that I was like, I have to do something with my life. I had like such a like mental collapse that like truly changed the trajectory of like everything I'm doing in my life. Um and I think that that like genuinely is when I started being like, all right, I gotta have like a new purpose because like the what I'm doing right now is not cutting it. And that's when things really like took off.

SPEAKER_01 53:02

It's it's things like that, um, where you get to points in your life where you have to pivot pivot, or what is it, life comes at you from a bit of an angle and you reassess and you you take stock of things again. And I I I don't necessarily know if it's like a a reinventing of yourself. That that sounds a little bit too overplayed to me. I think it's more like a just a reassessment of yourself, and you you you get down to the brass tacks of what's important and what's valuable to you, and it seems like that's been your trajectory, as I've observed and watched.

SPEAKER_03 53:42

Yeah, it's definitely, I mean, if we're being like so honest, like I was definitely being performative when I started playing out again because my partner at the time was like, Hey, like you really like need to like not be so clingy with me and like find other groups of people. Like, I feel like you're very dependent on me. And I was like, that's crazy, but low-key true. Um so I started playing, I was started being like, Well, I'm going out to cult and I'm gonna play open mic by myself, and I'm gonna do all this stuff by myself, and I'm gonna have friends that are like not your friends, and we're gonna like be two different people, and it's gonna be awesome. And then they were like, Okay, like good for you. Um so I started doing that, and I was like, But but do you see that I'm like like doing stuff by myself? And I'm like, you know, like writing music by myself, and I'm like playing out by myself, and I have all these friends, like, look at all these friends that like aren't your friends, like isn't that awesome? And they were like, Yeah, that's cool, awesome. And I was like, please, like, can we still be together? Like, please, like, this is gonna work, it'll be fine. Um, and they were like, That that's just like not what I'm asking. Like, the more you like keep doing that, like the less you're proving to me that you can be independent. And I was just so torn by that that I was doing all this stuff, and it was just such a like cognitive dissonance for me, where I was like, but I want I want them to like see that I'm doing all this stuff, and then you know, I had to recognize that that is literally codependence. Like, I had I had been sitting on so many years of if I wasn't in a relationship, I was making sure someone was validating me in some other way, and it was never just my internal acceptance of myself. Yeah, yeah. And it was it was something that I truly had to recognize, and I think when I did that, um I that was when I really started diving headfirst into music, um, was when I had begged for the last time and they were like, this is not healthy for either of us. And at the time I thought they were so evil for doing that. And even now, like I have no contact with them, so I truly will never know if it was, you know, a good thing or not. Um but January 1st was the last time that we spoke, and I had such a bad mental break that I was literally like on the side of the road crying, and my friend had to pick me up because I couldn't remember where I was and I didn't know what was going on, and I, you know, sat there for a while and I thought I was gonna play a show at Cult, but my band at the time told me that I was mentally probably not well enough to do it. And you know, that wasn't really cool of them, but it it's okay. Like it I from the outside it probably was the the better idea for to not have me do it, but you know, that was when I truly was like, I need to figure other things out and not like be so dependent on people, and that has been my goal this year, and that has been something so important to me that I've just like completely stepped out of who I was before, and I think it's what's really allowed me to like really dive headfirst into music and like start writing, and ever since I did that, you know, I've had so many people like coming up to talk to me because I'm like interesting and like just played songs and not because I'm like look like a sad little puppy and don't know where I am and like you know, I'm so codependent on other people. You can just do that with that. But that was like, you know, I had to prove to myself that I I am my own person, and I do have a lot of hobbies and things that I can do that don't involve pleasing another person because that when I stepped back, I realized that was like the minute I was in high school and I could start dating, that's what I was doing. You know, I was I was pleasing another person, I wasn't finding things that I could do for myself. And when I kind of stepped back, I was like, wow, I'm really just a mosaic of every single person that I've ever dated, and like I have no original thoughts, and that was just like my my whole thought process for like a month straight, two months straight, I don't even know. Where I was like, who what do I like? You know, and like it was so strange because I had to like sit there and go, What do I like? And then just like get scared because I was like, No, that person likes that. Like that, like what do I like? Like, what what do I enjoy? And you know, it was this whole mental cleansing of like I have to sit here and I bought a flip phone and I was I was not on social media, I wasn't anything like that. Um, and I wrote music and I read books and I watched TV shows I had never heard of before, and I was like, do I enjoy this? Do I not like this? And I was listening to music that I had never heard before, and all these artists that I had never listened to before, and I was like, what is Emmeline? Like, who is that? Like, what if she was not touched by any of this like external validation, who would she be? You know, and if she wasn't trying to regulate outside of herself for all these years, like what would she like? And that was kind of like the entire journey that kind of got me to where I am now.

SPEAKER_01 59:31

And you're still going.

SPEAKER_03 59:32

And I'm still going, and I'm still doing things by myself, and I haven't dated anyone since, and I haven't looked for people to give me external validation. I've had people actually stop liking who I was as a person because I wasn't sitting there trying to please them. Um, and I've had a lot of people tell me that I'm like hard to be around, or like don't they don't want to be around me, and then I have to take a step back, and my friends are like, it's literally probably because you're like you don't care anymore, and you're like sound within yourself, and that probably freaks them out because you're like this completely different person who's so much happier with themselves. Um, and that's a hard pill to swallow when you were walking through so many years of validation.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:13

So well it goes to show who who's like around you and for what reasons. Yeah. And you find out who who still wants to stick by you and who was there for maybe different reasons. Yeah. I guess.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:30

Yeah, and that's definitely been something else where I just have to sit and be like, okay, I have to accept it, and I can't I had to I have to fight a lot of my urges to immediately try to avoid abandonment and like please them immediately, and because I've sacrificed so much of myself doing that for so many years that now it's like I have to just watch people walk out, and that's such an easy thing for some people to do, and that's so crazy to me, but it's something I'm trying to master, and it it definitely freaks people out when I am less willing to get on my hands and knees and big for people to stay. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:09

It really sounds like the that music has been like a transport and bridging the gap and all of this stuff that you've gone through. And uh I I really appreciate you being so vulnerable within that process. And yeah, I mean, good luck on the rest of the journey. And not even good luck. Like it's you're you're already there, you're already figuring it out.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:32

Yeah, I well, I hope so. I then there's you know, people like you who allow people like me to be vulnerable and have that platform to, you know, I I know I'm not the only one who's gone through stuff like this, so it's like I'd like to think I am when I'm writing my music, you know, but I I there's so many different levels to it where I think a lot of people are coming to find themselves, and there are places for everyone to find themselves, and I think music is a big one because there's so many different ways you can. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:06

So true. Thank you so much, Emily.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:08

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:11

Thanks so much for listening. You can follow us on Instagram for show announcements and other episodes. And if you dig the artist stuff, give them a follow. Give them a like. And if you want to go the extra mile, check them out at one of their shows. Buy their merch, keep the scene alive.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:26

And when you look in the hold and